The new Apostolic Nuncio to Hungary, Michael Wallace Banach, speaks with EWTN Hungary’s Domonkos Pulay about his new role in Hungary. Banach previously served as Apostolic Nuncio in Papua New Guinea, the Solomon Islands, Senegal, and the Islamic Republic of Mauritania, and, in light of these past placements, he reflects on the Church on the African continent and in Papua New Guinea, emphasizing the importance of diplomatic relationships between the Holy See and other nations. He also expresses his hopes for Pope Francis’ potential apostolic visit to Hungary this year.
Domonkos Pulay: Your excellency, you were appointed by the Holy Father, Pope Francis, in the beginning of May 2022 as Apostolic Nuncio to Hungary. How did you receive the news and how would you evaluate your time spent in Hungary in the past few months?
Archbishop Banach: Those are experiences, I think, that all nuncios always remember, especially changing countries, and what not. It was a Saturday morning, and I remember it clearly. It was a Saturday morning. It was actually in February when I first found out about my change, about the appointment to Hungary. And it arrived with a message, and the message was that the Holy Father has appointed you Apostolic Nuncio to Hungary. And then the question was, do I accept the designation of the Holy Father. And of course, I said…
Domonkos Pulay: Was it an absolute, ‘Yes’?
Archbishop Banach: I said ‘Yes’. It was an absolute, ‘Yes’. It was. And so, the lag time from February to its publication in May is due to these diplomatic protocol issues, things that have to take place. So once the candidate says, ‘Yes’, the government, in this case the Holy See, the Vatican, then would write to the Hungarian authority saying that Pope Francis has the desire to appoint Archbishop Michael Banach as Nuncio, and would they accept that? And the countries can do their own background checks, look into the person and what not, but today, they generally say, ‘Yes’. And so, the ‘Yes’ came actually toward the end of April after Prime Minister Victor Orban’s visit to the Vatican, to Pope Francis. So, maybe he brought that with him. I don't know. Then we chose a publication date, which was the third of May. And that's a date that's sort of special to me, because it's the feast of Philip and James, the Apostles, and bishops are successors of the Apostles. So, I thought that would be a nice touch to have the appointment as Nuncio to Hungary published on that day dedicated and honoring the apostles. So yeah, it's great to be here. It's really great to be in Central Europe. I think Hungary has a long history, a long Christian history. And it's exciting to be able to live through some of those experiences in 2022, 2023 now.
Domonkos Pulay: I mean, you've been here almost a year in Hungary.
Archbishop Banach: Six months,
Domonkos Pulay: What is your impression of the Hungarian Catholic Church and the people?
Archbishop Banach: So, I think I start with the people. My impression of the Hungarian people is that they are an incredibly welcoming and generous people: long Christian tradition, long hard-working tradition, long academic tradition. And it's amazing to see how all of this comes together. And I think you see that as well in the church. You see all of those traditions coming together. The church in Hungary, the Catholic church in Hungary, is very active in the healthcare system, in the educational realm, [it is] a leader, if you will, in terms of ecumenical dialogue, excellent relations with other Christian churches denominations and superb relations with the Jewish community that is present here in Hungary. And there are also good relations with the Muslim community, although the Muslim community is a small minority.
So, I think the church is doing some very, very positive things. And I think it would be unfair to base a judgment on the church just on the numbers of people that you see or do not see at weekly or daily masses. That’s very important; that's a very important part of the church. But what goes on inside the church does not exhaust the Ministry of the Church, as you well know. So, the Church is involved in a lot of areas, a lot of realms, some of which I've mentioned, and it's just exciting to see that, to be part of it.
Domonkos Pulay: Right, your excellency, you've served in war-torn areas and zones before. And you arrived in Hungary which is bordered by Ukraine only a few months after the Russian invasion. What do you think of the way the Hungarian government, the Hungarian Catholic Church, and the different civil organizations have been dealing with this crisis? Do you think that Hungary has been providing sufficient aid and support to the Ukrainian refugees entering Hungary.
Archbishop Banach: When the war broke out about a year ago now, I was struck by reading in the press, (and obviously I was reading it knowing what was happening to me, with the change that was taking place) how the instances of the Catholic Church were actually responding rapidly and generously to the refugees. I'm thinking of Caritas in particular, thinking of what the Sovereign Order of Malta was able to do: where they had people at the train stations, and they were there with blankets and food, and helping with getting people resettled. I think, perhaps, Hungary was more of a transit country for the refugees, and so the instances of the church were very helpful in helping point people in the right direction. So, I think there has been a very positive and humanitarian Christian response to the refugees. When we arrive at a ceasefire or peace in Ukraine, I think this is an invitation for the international community to do an examination of conscience. Because for me, it's very difficult to fathom how we arrived at this point in the year 2022, 2023. With all of the international instances that are there, all of the international organizations, all of the dialogue that we purportedly do, something did not go right. Something went astray and sort of fell off the track a little bit. So, I think when the ceasefire arrives, when peace is restored, I think the international community has some soul-searching to do on this issue.
Domonkos Pulay: Your excellency, you've been serving as a Holy See’s delegate, a Vatican delegate, for over 30 years. And you served as Apostolic delegate and as Apostolic Nuncio to several West African countries, including Senegal and Mauritania. Could you tell us maybe a little bit about your 10 years of experience in Africa, about the Catholic Church and the faithful.
Archbishop Banach: So, before Africa, I was in Papua New Guinea, which is in Oceania, near Australia. And what's interesting about Papua is it is the second most populous country in Oceania. Australia has the highest population. I believe, well, at the time it was around 18 million, and Papua occupies the second place with eight or nine million. New Zealand is in third with four [million], and then you have the islands there. What distinguishes Papua is it's a Christian country. And in fact, Christianity is part of the Constitution where the Constitution recognizes that Papua New Guinea is a Christian country.
Domonkos Pulay: One of the few countries...
Archbishop Banach: One of the few countries that still recognizes that. So, in Papua, you have the Catholic Church, the Anglican Church, and the Lutheran Church. Those are the major churches that are working there, and then you have some of the smaller Protestant churches as well. [It is] a country that also knows the ravages of war. The whole Bougainville situation: Bougainville is an island of Papua New Guinea to the northeast of Papua Mainland, and there's always been some tensions between Mainland Papua New Guinea and Bougainville. But even on the West, the whole west Papua question, which involves Indonesia and what not. So, [Papua New Guinea is] a country that has known the ravages of war, the consequences of war.
West Africa has been a little different in that sense. Senegal is really a West African success story. Senegal has had 60 years of democracy and peaceful transition of democratic power.
The residents are very agitated, animated, during the campaigns, but they accept the results of the elections. So, there's a peace and there's a tranquility that is present in Senegal. And, of course, with that comes the opportunities for development, economic betterment and the like. Cape Verde and Guinea Bissau: which at one time were one country and the over the years they've been separated, even though there's an ocean that separates them. They were one country at one point. Unfortunately, they've known some of the ravages of war, instability. But for the most part, stability has returned to those countries. And the Islamic Republic of Mauritania is a country that has really known peace as well over the years. So I think the West African countries have a little bit of a different experience in terms for the most part, they are peaceful. However, some of the countries that border the countries where I served are in full-blown conflicts at this point, so we hope for the best.
Domonkos Pulay: It's a difficult area, for sure.
Archbishop Banach: Yeah, it is.
Domonkos Pulay: And what were your main duties and responsibilities, and also what would you say was perhaps the greatest challenge that you faced in the African continent, and also maybe the greatest fruits that came out of your years of service in the African continent?
Archbishop Banach: So, I think my daily bread and butter was what any Nuncio around the world does. If you look at the documents, look at the Code of Canon Law, the first task of a nuncio is to render more solid the bonds of communion that exist between the local church and the Apostolic See or the See of Rome. And if you look at that, it says to make more solid. That means that those bonds already exist. So, I think the role of a nuncio is to create a greater communion between a local church, say the church in Hungary, and the church in Rome. And that can be done in a lot of ways. We do that, nuncios do that, by speaking with bishops, by visiting dioceses, by representing Pope Francis to those people, by bringing his presence, his message close to them. But then also by being the eyes and the ears of Pope Francis, informing him of the experience of those local churches. In a second role, there's the relations with the government authorities, diplomacy, if you will, in a traditional sense.
And so, some might ask, ‘Well, why would the church be involved in that?’ There were a lot of historical reasons and there are practical reasons. I think some of the practical reasons come from the fact that if the local churches are involved in healthcare and in education, in those kinds of activities, then obviously the pope's representative is going to have contact with people from those ministries to help facilitate the work, the Ministry of the Church in those areas in a country.
The biggest challenge in West Africa, I think it's a communication challenge.
Domonkos Pulay: Between the countries, or more like something interior, or domestic?
Archbishop Banach: Interior communication in the sense that the infrastructures are not always reliable. And so, when you have urgent messages, sometimes the email doesn't work. You just can't get it out and whatnot. And you have to be creative in finding other ways to communicate with the bishops. I think in a country like Senegal, like the Islamic Republic of Mauritania, which are predominantly Muslim countries, I think that's a challenge as well to find a common language, to find common points of interest, where from an inter-religious perspective, both Christians and Muslims can cooperate together.
In terms of the biggest successes or the biggest blessings - maybe that's a better word - it's just the simplicity and in the faith of the people. I hope, and I mean this sincerely, I hope that I have half of the faith that I saw in many people on the ground of those countries. That's a great joy, that's a great blessing for a priest, for a bishop.
Domonkos Pulay: That will be my next question is that how would you describe the current landscape of African Catholicism and spirituality? I mean, you've experienced it visiting communities and surely seeing different aspects of the Church in Africa. What do you think of that?
Archbishop Banach: I think Catholicism in Africa is vibrant. Catholicism in Africa is alive. That brings with it challenges, of course. And maybe we see that, throughout the history of the church, the tension between prophecy and institution. St. Paul saw those tensions immediately. But, perhaps, a challenge there is to help the churches in Africa to come out of the sacristy, if you will. I don't mean that in a bad sense, but worship is important. However, the involvement of the social dimension is also important. I think you see that in many African countries with the role of the church in building bridges and working for peace. So that's the challenge that perhaps I would see for the churches in Africa to make the Catholic faith, make the Chistian faith more and more part of daily life. But as I'm saying that, I can also say that that's the challenge, I think, for the Church in the West, in general.
Domonkos Pulay: So would you say it is difficult? So, you said the worship is excellent. You said it's amazing. We should probably learn how to worship from our African brothers and sisters. But you said that putting the social teachings of the Catholic church into practice, that's more of a difficulty.
Archbishop Banach: I think that's the challenge, or maybe to express it differently is then, to bring what we celebrate on Sundays inside the church building to bring that to influence daily lives on all levels afterwards during the week.
Domonkos Pulay: Pope Francis of the traveling to Democratic Republic of Congo will be heading to South Sudan on February 3rd. What do you think is the significance of these two apostolic visits to these African countries.
Archbishop Banach: Very significant. In fact, today, this morning around 8 o'clock in the morning in Rome, Pope Francis left for the Democratic Republic of Congo, which is his first stop.
I think, when Pope Francis visits a country and these countries in particular, I think the first thing that he brings is presence. We refer to the pope as a Holy Father. And so, the father is present to his family. And so, by visiting Kinshasa, by visiting South Sudan, Pope Francis is bringing that paternal presence. He's bringing a soothing presence. He's bringing the presence of someone who cares. But as a good father, he also wants to listen to the concerns of the people who are in those countries. Obviously, the Pope, Pope Francis travels as a head of state. So apart from the ecclesial dimension of presence and paternal interest and care, there's the more diplomatic, political dimension. And, he will have some meetings with the authorities in those countries. And both of those countries have suffered civil wars, and continue to suffer from civil wars. So, I think the message there is to encourage them to work for a common ground, to work for understanding, reconciliation, forgiveness among the different factions and to work for a united country. So, I think in that sense the visit is very, very significant to the Democratic Republic of Congo and South Sudan.
Domonkos Pulay: Your excellency, you experienced what it's like working in a non-Catholic and a non-Christian environment - in fact, working in a Muslim environment when you were involved in the diplomatic rapprochement between the Holy See and the Islamic Republic of Mauritania. What do you think... So, we know that the major religion in the Democratic Republic of Congo is Catholicism. But when it comes to South Sudan, however, over 90% of the population is Muslim. What do you think... How will this effect, and will this even affect Pope Francis' visit to South Sudan? Will he be welcome there just as much as he will be welcomed in the Democratic Republic of Congo?
Archbishop Banach: Yes, is the answer to that question. I do think South Sudan actually has a higher Christian population. And South Sudan might identify itself as a Christian country, distinguishing itself from Sudan, which is predominantly Muslim. But of course, those are the challenges.
So, you're right. I began my time in Mauritania, the Islamic Republic of Mauritania, as the apostolic delegates, so, just being accredited to the church. There's one diocese, the Diocese of Nouakchott, the capital in Mauritania. But very quickly, we were able to establish diplomatic relations with the Islamic Republic of Mauritania. And, I might add, it was at their interest. They approached the Holy See, and they expressed interest in establishing diplomatic relations with us. And one of the arguments they put forward was wanting to promote inter-religious dialogue and work together on some peace issues. And I think there is the challenge: to find with our non-Christian brothers and sisters, the common ground where we can work together.
I think the map that Pope Francis has charted out for us in Fratelli Tutti and also in the document that was signed in Abu Dhabi on human fraternity, I think that points the way. And you see more and more Muslim countries, more and more Muslim bodies who are responding to that invitation and are showing willingness, greater openness to dialogue and to work with the Catholic Church. So, I think it will affect the visit in the sense that that's the context in which the Pope is visiting and so we have to preach the Gospel in the context where the church finds itself. But I'm sure that he will also find the openness and the willingness of the Muslim communities to welcome him and then to work with the church in those countries.
Domonkos Pulay: In your experience what could be the common grounds with our Muslim brothers and sisters? What can we find... What are the areas where we can work together?
Archbishop Banach: I think the common grounds with Muslim brothers and sisters are human dignity, respect for the human person. I think we see eye to eye and a lot of moral questions: questions of life - the beginning and end of life - a lot of questions that affect morality in the everyday life. So, there is certainly... I think there's a lot there. And if we focus in on what we have in common, oftentimes we discover that we actually have more in common than what separates us.
And that's valid for the Christian ecumenical dialogue as well.
Domonkos Pulay: Right.
According to research conducted a few years ago, by 2050, Africa will be home to more than a billion, over a billion Christians. And which is perhaps why we've been hearing more frequently that Africa is indeed the future of the Catholic Church. Now, what do you think of that statement and also how do you think, if this comes true, how do you think this will impact and shape our global church?
Archbishop Banach: I don't even know how many zeros a billion is. I don't even know how to write it. But it's a big number, and you see that. The African population is a population that is increasing exponentially, not just in Christian and Catholic communities, but across the entire continent. Obviously, it's going to have an impact. It's going to have a global impact on the level of markets. I think there’s a lot of opportunity. But again, caution there. We don't want to relive the risks of colonialism and the challenges that we had in the past. The economic opportunities have to be approached in a moral perspective under a moral compass. So, there's a lot of opportunities there.
Oftentimes you hear people say that the church in Africa represents the hope of the Catholic Church. And there I would say. yes and no. Yes, in the sense that, wherever the church is, there is hope, because as Christians, as Catholics, we’re hopeful people. We pray that, after the Our Father at every mess: “We wait in joyful hope for the coming of our Savior, Jesus Christ.” So, I think as the numbers, the number of believers, the number of Catholic believers in Africa increases, yes, there is that hope that's brought. But wherever the church is, is a sign of hope as well. So, the church is a beacon of hope in Hungary. The church, the Catholic Church is a beacon of hope in the United States of America. The Church is a beacon of hope in Japan. [The Church is a beacon of hope in] whatever country. So, when I say yes and no, in that sense, let's not think that Africa has the corner on hope. We all are living and contributing to hope. And certainly, one billion is going to impact.
And I think it's going to impact in terms of theology. Our theology will become richer as we learn to integrate African perspectives into Roman Catholic theology. Pope Francis, before setting out on this apostolic visit, he had an interview, and he said one of the big things is just to learn to listen to the African experience, to learn to listen to African believers, to African people. And if we really do that, that, too, will have a big impact on how we approach questions, and [will allow us] maybe, to be less heady about our approach to theology, about our approach to questions, and [will allow us] to appreciate the lived experience, and to be able to share that lived experience through stories and through encounters.
Domonkos Pulay: And you said a vibrant community, that Africa is extremely vibrant when it comes to the Catholic faith. So maybe we can learn that: how to worship, or that zeal for evangelization. Do you think that will change, not just the Catholic Church, but of course the entire world? We say that in the West, the West [has] lost its sense of God, its sense of religion and faith. Do you think they will come back... Because it used to be that European missionaries would go to Africa. Do you think they will come back to our continent and truly make the Catholic Church greater in these countries which truly lost their grounds.
Archbishop Banach: We've heard the expression, there are no atheists in foxholes, regarding wars that have been fought on this continent. I think it's fair to say that there are no atheists in Africa. The African psyche, the African character, is a very religious character. They live with the divine in everyday life. That's perhaps something that we can learn as well. We've forgotten that. We tend to compartmentalize our experience of God to Sunday mornings and not have that lived experience. But with that, of course, comes to enthusiasm. I just remember being incredibly moved in Papua New Guinea, but also in Senegal, in Cape Verde, where I would be invited for a mass and you would have an open field and there would be five or seven thousand people before you in the open field, celebrating Sunday mass. That's just an incredible high, if you will, for a priest, for a bishop. But when you see that, you realize how religious the African person is, the African character is. And I agree, I think we can learn a lot from that.
Domonkos Pulay: When it comes to Africa, the Catholic faith in Africa, what would you say are the dangers? What would you say some of your worries perhaps and also your hope? We [discussed how] we are hoping that it will be a sign of true faith and of hope for the whole world. But of course, we can see some of the dangers that it would involve.
Archbishop Banach: I think the dangers are syncretism of mixing traditional Catholic beliefs with traditional cultural beliefs. I think it's a danger. I don't think it's a cliff that one could fall off, because I think the Catholic Church, throughout the years, throughout its work, its missionary work, has been very good in terms of absorbing local traditions. Maybe that comes from the fact that we're an incarnational church, that Jesus became man. So, he lived in our world, and the Catholic church has to live in the world in which it is. And so, it does learn to take on legitimate traditions from other perspectives. But I do think that is a danger.
Perhaps another danger is just the fear of being a Catholic, of being a Christian. Maybe we have that fear. Undoubtedly, we have that fear [that] the world around, or the world over to use an EWTN expression. Whereas you might be a minority Christian, and if there were some persecutions or some discrimination that takes place, you might be less enthusiastic about professing Christian faith to save your life. And I can understand that. I think we all want to live in peace. We all want to save our lives, but that could be a challenge as well. But there is much to hope for and much to look forward to in the future.
Just as an example of this: if you look at various international conferences, especially population conferences or conferences on women that have taken place over the past years, there are many African women who are part of the Holy See’s delegation to those conferences, because they have a unique perspective, and they have a perspective, a voice that needs to be heard. And perhaps that's the uniqueness of the Catholic Church in an African context, is that we are able to give voice to people who otherwise might not be able to find a space for that voice or who otherwise might not have a voice.
Domonkos Pulay: Finally, Archbishop Banach, after the Holy Father, Pope Francis, celebrated the closing mass of the 52nd International Eucharistic Congress here in Budapest, he promised that he would return to Hungary, possibly in 2023. Now we've been reading a lot about Pope Francis's health conditions, and we know he has a busy schedule and different responsibilities. Could this long-awaited apostolic visit really happen?
Archbishop Banach: Well, like I told you, Africa does not have the corner on the hope. You see, also there is hope in Hungary. Certainly, the Pope's health condition is a consideration. In fact, this current trip to Africa was supposed to take place last July, but because of the knee problems, the treatment he was going through for his knees, it was postponed.
And if I can just go back, I might add something else there. I think something important about the visit to Africa is that it's being done, or at least the visit to South Sudan, is being done together with Archbishop Justin Welby, the Archbishop of Canterbury, and the Moderator of the Church of Scotland. So, it's an ecumenical, it really is an ecumenical visit. It's been defined as ecumenical witness. Cardinal Parolin, the Secretary of State, defined it as ecumenical witness. And I think that's actually a sign of hope for the ecumenical movement, that maybe our discussion is moving away from theological discussions to doing more things together and showing unity by participating in things together. That's a bit of a parentheses to answering your questions.
But the Holy Father's health is quite an issue. I think it's mobility... it's more mobility. I was with him in November; we had a wonderful conversation. And he follows the situation of the Church of Hungary very, very closely and was very well informed. And hope springs eternal. Right now, there's nothing officially confirmed for 2023. In fact, I don't think there are any other visits officially confirmed for 2023, but hope springs eternal. And who knows? Maybe there'll be some development in the next few weeks or months on that issue. So, continue to hope.
Domonkos Pulay: Right, continue to hope.
Well, if this visit would happen, what do you think would it mean for the Hungarian Church? I mean, the last visit that we had was when Pope John Paul II visited Hungary, in terms of an Apostolic visit. Now, of course, Pope Francis was here for the closing mass of the International Eucharistic Congress. But what would you say? Why is it significant that Pope Francis would visit Hungary?
Archbishop Banach: I think Pope Francis' visit to Hungary would be significant for similar reasons to his visit to the African continent, now. Certainly, when Pope Saint John Paul II visited Hungary, it was after the fall of communism, [and] there was a new found enthusiasm, and it was important that the church participate in that. So, twenty, thirty years later, the realities on the ground are very different, [and] perhaps some of that enthusiasm has disappeared a bit. And so, I think Pope Francis would find a very changed Hungary with respect to the 89/90 visit of Pope John Paul II.
But I think the visit would be important to encourage the local Catholic community: again, that paternal dimension of a papal visit or the visit of the Holy Father. And I also think it would be an important visit to encourage or to show the non-Catholic communities, the non-believers, that the church is with you, the church stands with you, and the church wants to work with you in good faith. I think that would be a great message to bring and to leave in Hungary.
Domonkos Pulay: Well, your excellency, Archbishop Michael Wallace Banach, many thank you so much for your time again.
Archbishop Banach: Thank you!
